[Assam] Fwd: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'

Dilip/Dil Deka dilipdeka at yahoo.com
Thu May 10 11:02:38 PDT 2007


Pardon my levity here..............
   
  I was told that MASS stands for Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti. I'd like to propose a change in their name to ULFAr Adhikar Sangram Samiti. The acronym would be
  ULFAr ASS.
  ============================================================

Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
        > All most people would want to know if these HR orgs.
  >are 'fair & balanced' when they they show their selective outrages.
  

  *** I know Ram, I do. ALL they want from them despicable HR Orgs. is 'fairness and balance' like their government, their press, their TV stations, and their very own selves!
  

  Who are you kidding Ram ?
  

  

  > But, one would think, that they do a huge explanation to Assam and her people >in general - don't you think?
  

  Yeah? Like the governments past and present whose acts of commission and omission created ULFA perhaps?
  

  But I haven't ever seen any righteous outrage on that account from our vocal intelligentsia. Any idea why Ram?
  

  

  >Is India at war with another country at the moment? And does it have POWs? That would be news.  >From the likes of it, it seems India treats ulfa, at best, as insurgents, and >at worst, as terrorists. And I do not think the Geneva Convention considers >such types as POWs.
  

  

  *** Dick Cheney will be proud of you.
  

  But let us not forget for one moment, that the USA too was born with the help of the same kind of 'non-warfare' that you or Dick Cheney or GWB would not give any Geneva Convention recognition for.
  

  And let us not insult anyone's intelligence here by EQUATING  AlQaeda with Chechnyans' struggle for independence or ULFAs'.
  

  

  >No, it certainly is not.  But, to be fair, shouldn't the ULFA also account for >the missing and account for the killing they perpetrated on innocent common >folks?
  

  *** YES. They should. But let us not try to equate the insurgents hiding in jungles or taking shelter in contiguous countries, without the institutions or resources of the Indian state, either to keep tab or hold control over their prisoners or victims and WITHHOLDING that information from their families. There is a difference here you know?
  

  >Oh! I watch old Steven every chance I get - and I agree with you.
  

  *** I sure am glad to hear that Ram. But still you invoke the Dick Cheneyesque argument about why ULFA families should not be given info. on the whereabouts of   those that India either killed or are holding prisoners.
  

  What gives?
  

  c-da
  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  At 11:01 AM -0600 5/10/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
  C'da.     *** That is not how I read the posts in 'asom' or your support therefor. Did I read them incorrectly? The righteously outraged in 'asom' and assamnet demanding explanations from 'assamwatch' for their purported siding only with ULFA and ULFA sympathizers and not for  purported ULFA  victims was the issue that started this string of posts, didn't it?     You may have misinterpreted what they meant. All most people would want to know if these HR orgs.  are 'fair & balanced' when they they show their selective outrages.     What I meant was that they don't owe me or other individuals an 'explanation' of any sort. But, one would think, that they do a huge explanation to Assam and her people in general - don't you think? Or, do you think, they don't even owe that?     >Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with the >GOI.  
   >>*** That is a revelation . I wonder why.     I brought up GOI - because that is where these HR groups and sympathizers will ultimately have to go to have their complaints redressed. There is no other option, or is there?     >If I might, I would also add the righteous and the unbiased of 'assamnet' and 'asom' to the list too.     Really! I have yet to come across Assamnet shutting anyone out.     >Geneva Convention and treat prisoners of war with certain dignity and humanity     Is India at war with another country at the moment? And does it have POWs? That would be news.  From the likes of it, it seems India treats ulfa, at best, as insurgents, and at worst, as terrorists. And I do not think the Geneva Convention considers such types as POWs.     I know, many would like their cause to be shown as 'the cause' and showcase that as the 'Great War' with all the trappings of  POWs, Geneva Conventions etc. In all probability, to no doubt, elevate the stature of local
 low-level conflicts to something more "global' - that the whole world is paying attention.     The fact is the Chechens want that, the Ulfa wants it, and so does the Al Queda.  All of them in wanted lists in the US. Well, they got the Global Attention!  Issues like "POW status" are usually reserved for countries at war and that too observe certain rules of engaement.  They don't go on extortion or killing rounds, nor make hostages of women and children (Chechnya) and kill them (Chehnya and Dhemaji).     >Still is it unreasonable to expect an account of what India did to the ULFA husbands  >of these women? That is the issue here.     No, it certainly is not.  But, to be fair, shouldn't the ULFA also account for the missing and account for the killing they perpetrated on innocent common folks?  Now, you don't want to give one party a pass just because some people think "Indians also claim a superior civilizational heritage"?  Or does THAT not matter at all?     >If you get a
 chance, watch  the Colbert Report in Comedy Central     Oh! I watch old Steven every chance I get - and I agree with you.     >BTW there are more apologies and 'mistakes were made' mea-culpas in today's paper too     I know, there are way too many mea-culpas and that too only from one side. The GOI should let the ulfa get out some mea-culpas too. And we all wait with bated breadth. :)     --Ram                    On 5/10/07, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
  Ram:  
   Here is a delayed response to your litany of complaints:  
   >They can be as SELECTIVE as they wish - and they don't have to give me or >anyone else any reason.  
   *** That is not how I read the posts in 'asom' or your support therefor. Did I read them incorrectly? The righteously outraged in 'asom' and assamnet demanding explanations from 'assamwatch' for their purported siding only with ULFA and ULFA sympathizers and not for  purported ULFA  victims was the issue that started this string of posts, didn't it?  
   
   >Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with the >GOI.  
   *** That is a revelation . I wonder why.  If I might, I would also add the righteous and the unbiased of 'assamnet' and 'asom' to the list too. Wouldn't you :-)?  
   
   >There is another angle to all this is, I don't know what "DUTIES" the GOI owes >specially to those who have denounced their Indian citizenship, and those who >have expressed in no uncertain terms that they will harm India, its assets and >anything in between, whenever they can.  
   *** You are right on that count. But GoI, its apologists and Indians also claim a superior civilizational heritage, which, one might venture to guess, would transcend geographical boundaries or nationality labels. Like those 'civilized' nations that subscribe to the Geneva Convention and treat prisoners of war with certain dignity and humanity, even though they are enemies. After all 'enemies' too put their lives in the line of fire with a CAUSE that THEY hold dear. I know  the GOOD FOLKS are the ones that are RIGHT in these conflicts; like the USA or India while those who do not agree are WRONG.  
   Still is it unreasonable to expect an account of what India did to the ULFA husbands of these women? That is the issue here.  
   And should the righteous of 'asom' or 'assamnet' oppose giving out such information or support GoI's withholding it, because 'assamwatch' or other such despicable and biased HR orgs did not take up the cause of the victims of ULFA actions ?  
   I will be very interested in hearing that as I am sure others who sport that mantle of holiness like you all do. It will make very interesting reading :-).  
   If you get a chance, watch  the Colbert Report in Comedy Central. He explores and exposes these truths in vivid color :-).  
   
   
 
  >Perhaps, the only duty the GOI may have for such people is HR. In today's papers, I read the army has apologized for mistreating villages (while pursuing ulfa - I think in Arunachal).
     
   *** I am so relieved to hear that :-). BTW there are more apologies and 'mistakes were made' mea-culpas in today's paper too, that would make your Indianness proud.  And if I were a betting man, there will continue to be many more of those. What is a better way to wash one's dirty hands off after rubbing some unfortunate's life out than to say 'OOOPS! That was a mistake. We are so sorry!'  
   
   c-da  
   
   
   
   
   
   
   At 10:57 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
  C'da
    
   >*** I can't give you that answer, since I don't speak for assamwatch. Perhaps you will ask them.
  
   perhaps.
  
   >*** What do you think ? Were they? And if they were / are, WHO ought to be looking out for their >welfare? Should it be 'legitimate' authorities or 'biased' HR orgs.?
  
   We are assuming that the GOI is NOT doing its job of cleaning up its own mess, the mess left by ulfa, and the mess left by anyone one else.
  
   Then come these various HR orgs. Is it "their" duty to bring up these matters of selective outrage. 
  No, certainly not. They can be as SELECTIVE as they wish - and they don't have to give me or anyone else any reason. including the GOI.
  Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with the GOI. After all, the "appeals" in all righteousness are in the end made to the GOI.
  
   There is another angle to all this is, I don't know what "DUTIES" the GOI owes specially to those who have denounced their Indian citizenship, and those who have expressed in no uncertain terms that they will harm India, its assets and anything in between, whenever they can.
  
   That perhaps is ONE single reason why the GOI is so hesitant to release those ulfa cadres it has caught. GOI releases, they skip town, to kill another day. Now, we all know how 'dumb' the GOI is, but lests not take that too far.
  
   Perhaps, the only duty the GOI may have for such people is HR. In today's papers, I read the army has apologized for mistreating villages (while pursuing ulfa - I think in Arunachal).
  
   My point is for someone to ask for 'fairplay' in HR matters, there must be some kind of HISTORICAL record of HR orgs that they are touting for, that tells the world - LOOK, we play fair, and we are what we say we are - an HR org.
  
   >*** The conundrum you manufacture here is a false one Ram. It is NOT a conundrum at all.  It is merely >an attempt to hide behind circular logic, when confronted by the superficiality of the outrage expressed >in the original propositions.
  
   Possibly - but wasn't it you who had brought up the plight of the ulfa wives on hunger strike and appealing to netters. As I recall, there were not any takers on this net (including me). Now, why was that?
  Because, C'da, the very next week, I think, you gave a wide-berth to the plight of the families who are demanding answers from the ULFA (organized by the Assam Public Works or something).
  
   My guess is netters were not hold their breath here.
  
   So, actually, this is the problem - there are these common folks (the ulfa wives, and those who kin were killed by the ulfa). Their plights are almost similar.
  And yet, battle lines are drawn - one group supported by the PCG, the PCPIA and others, while the other unfortunate group is supported by the APW.
  Even in your appeal, one of the demands along these lines "release of the 5 detained by the GOI and talks with the ULFA". Now, who put that in? While they may have been great points to bring up elsewhere, the poor ulfa wives got a raw deal there - their cause, IMHO, was dragged into unnecessary political gamesmanship, in which those ladies had no immediate stake.
  
   I really wonder, and really do, if there is such an organization in Assam or elsewhere who is just interested in uplifting in some small way the lives of so many affected by this continuous cycle of violence in Assam - without regard to who is winning and who is losing in the political chessgame between the ulfa and the GOI and keeping all pretenses aside?
  
   --Ram
  
   
   
   
   
On 5/8/07, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
  Ram:
  
 
  >That is very interesting and I wonder why.
  
 
  *** I can't give you that answer, since I don't speak for assamwatch. Perhaps you will ask them.
  
 
  >Just wondering if any Assamese families were ever affected because the ulfa allegedly killed their >husbands, children etc.
  
   *** What do you think ? Were they? And if they were / are, WHO ought to be looking out for their welfare? Should it be 'legitimate' authorities or 'biased' HR orgs.?  
  
 
  Oh, I see! But ULFA should NOT have done anything that might have harmed some to begin with, right?
  I agree. Ram.  Unfortunately such conflicts do not arise out of nothing?  What has CHANGED about the CAUSES that gave rise to ULFA? Have you asked that question?  Are you able to face the answer to such questions?
  
 
  
 
  
 
  >But that couldn't be true, nobody really has any good proof that it was the ulfa who could have done >such things. A good guess would be those people killed themselves for some unknown reason.
        
   >Hence, in such a situation, it is impossible for any "rights group" or for that matter, futile, for anybody, >with any ounce of righteousness to stand up for them.
  
 
  >This, of course, does NOT hold true of the supporters and advocates of ulfa.
      
   
 
  
 
  *** The conundrum you manufacture here is a false one Ram. It is NOT a conundrum at all.  It is merely an attempt to hide behind circular logic, when confronted by the superficiality of the outrage expressed in the original propositions.
  
 
  But that does not eliminate the problem: The insurgency and its toll on EVERYBODY. What is therefore the answer? I would submit it is a POLITICAL settlement that would end the conflict .
  
 
  If we contribute something to bring that about we would be a part of the solution. And that would not come from waving those banners of self-righteousness dyed with conveniently affected outrage and demonizing HR orgs. Raising our voices to achieve a just and honorable political solution the conflict will.
  
 
  c-da
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  At 8:50 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
  C'da,
        
   Just realized just after I sent the mail. Sorry about that.
  
   Your post on the subject, of course, as usual raises valid points.
  
   "It might be a matter interested to you to know that our widely circulated and Assam media reported Press Release to help the victims (within our limits) of the Dhemaji Explosion did not produce any results" - Assam Watch
  
   That is very interesting and I wonder why.
  
   Just wondering if any Assamese families were ever affected because the ulfa allegedly killed their husbands, children etc. But that couldn't be true, nobody really has any good proof that it was the ulfa who could have done such things. A good guess would be those people killed themselves for some unknown reason.
  
   Hence, in such a situation, it is impossible for any "rights group" or for that matter, futile, for anybody, with any ounce of righteousness to stand up for them.
  
   >the propensity of some of our peers whose piety and righteous outrages are >usually set aside ONLY for those with whom they have empathy for, be it >for social, be it for political, be it for linguistic, be it for religious or be it even >for moral grounds.
  
   This, of course, does NOT hold true of the supporters and advocates of ulfa.
  
   --Ram
  
   
   
   

  On 5/8/07, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
  Ram,
  
 
  I am fine with assamnet which goes thru assam.org. I am not allowed to post in ASOM however, even though I get to see 'asom' list posts, time to time. For some reason they come to my mailbox, even though I never subscribed to it.
  
 
  c-da
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  At 8:18 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
  >I do not have privileges to post in the ASOM list, even though, by some quirk >of the internet's  reach, I do get to see its posts, sometimes. So I request >Wahid Kokaideu to forward  this response, if he would, to that list as well.
            
  
   This post seems to come thru fine, C'da. I even checked assam.org - seems fine.
  Of course. it could be that you are high up in the Ozarks, and nothing can reach you :):)
  
   --Ram
 
  On 5/8/07, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
  Wahid Kokaideu raises a valid question, as do the others of the ASOM list.  It demonstrates the generosity and registers the fair-minded outlooks of all those who look out for the welfare of ALL, regardless of the labels or the stigmata SOME might be associated with, whether they are self acquired or assigned by others or gained from accidents of history.  
  
 
  Or so it might seem.
  
 
  Why I add the above qualifier is for a very simple reason: Over the decades I have witnessed, just like all others too who  are either willing or able, the propensity of some of our peers whose piety and righteous outrages are usually set aside ONLY for those with whom they have empathy for, be it for social, be it for political, be it for linguistic, be it for religious or be it even for moral grounds.
  
 
  But we also know it is not unique to our peers. It happens to be an universal response.
  
 
  So why do I even bother to raise the issue? What makes it special?
  
 
  For two reasons.
  
 
          A: The mantle of superior morality worn by our learned peers who are outraged by
          the despicable human-rights organizations who take up causes ONLY of people with the
          stigma I described above and not ALL, regardless of their sins, real or perceived, as they
          - the fair minded citizenry - would  undoubtedly do.
  
 
          B:  The intellectual acumen of the outraged who speculated in the ASOM mailing list as
          to WHY these fasting wives had to go marry them ULFA cadres about whose fate the
  
          Indian government remains  silent, in spite of ONE its own High Court's orders to reveal
          it to these wives.
  
 
  If we take a moment to take a deeper look at the above two points it will be eminently clear that:
  
 
  In A above, the mantle of superior morality derived from an universal goodwill for the welfare of ALL is, at best, a mythical one. It is a conveniently donned cloak. For they WERE / ARE NOWHERE to be found
  when THOSE WHOSE acts of commission and omission gave rise to the insurgency in Assam and ULFA amongst one of the sub-continent's most docile and passive ethnic community, the Oxomiyas.
  
 
  In B above we see an abject  ignorance of one of civilized societies' most fundamental tenets: They do not hold the spouses or the children of individuals charged or adjudged  guilty of a crime similarly guilty, just like they do not hold an entire race or religion or country guilty of the transgressions  or crimes of a few; like they do for example in India. Remember the Sikh pogrom after Indira Gandhi's killing? Remember the  Godhra aftermath?
  
 
  Finally, those  whose outrages are NOT convenient or politically expedient , ought to ask FIRST:  Why do HR activists needed at all? Is it NOT because of a FAILURE of those who are entrusted with protecting the rights of the ALL of the citizenry and for upholding the rule of law to begin with? If the
  'legitimate' govts. did their job, WOULD these despicable, BIASED and SELF-SERVING HUMAN RIGHTS  organization be even needed?
  
 
  I do not have privileges to post in the ASOM list, even though, by some quirk of the internet's  reach, I do get to see its posts, sometimes. So I request Wahid Kokaideu to forward  this response, if he would, to that list as well.
  
 
  cm
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  At 3:16 AM -0400 5/8/07, assamwatch at aol.com wrote:
  
                 
-----Original Message-----
From: assamwatch at aol.com
To: assamonline at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 6.21PM
Subject: Re: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'
  Dear Mr Wahid Saleh,
  
   We are very grateful to receive a copy of your posting in response to our Press Release AW/001/2007 Dated 29.04.2007.
  
  
   AssamWatch(UK) would encourage you to submit us cases of Human Rights violations in the internationally recognised format occurring in Assam with  permission to AssamWatch(UK) from the victim/victims to enable us to work on those cases.
  
   It might be a matter interested to you to know that our widely circulated and Assam media reported Press Release to help the victims (within our limits) of the Dhemaji Explosion did not produce any results.
  
   Regards.
  
   Press section.
  
   AssamWatch(UK)
  
   4 May 2007
  
   AssamWatch is a voluntary non-profit making Human Rights organisation based in the United kingdom.
  
   
-----Original Message-----  From: wahid.saleh at gmail.com
To: assamonline at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 10.30AM
Subject: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'
  I understand that AssamWatch (UK) is a Human rights organization.
>From the press release by Dr Hazarika, as he mentioned about the six
wives of the ULFA cadres, it seems he is only concerned about the
wellbeing of ULFA and ULFA relatives.

My question to Dr Hazarika:

What about the families that had to part with their near
and dear ones due to the ULFA's brutality?

Many of those kidnapped by the ULFA remain traceless, (for
your information Dr Hazarika please see the post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/assamonline/message/3100 )

Are these families not 'human' enough so that their 'rights' could
be taken up by Human rights organization like AssamWatch (UK)?

Regards,
Wahid Saleh

--- assamwatch at ... wrote:

PRESS RELESE

AW/001/2007

Dated 29 April 2007

AssamWatch(UK) has noted with some relief that upon receiving firm
written commitment from the Chief Minister of Assam, the six wives of
  the missing cadres of the United Liberation Front of Asom in Bhutan in
December 2003 has ended their 'FAST UNTO DEATH' action on 26 April
2007. Assam Watch(UK) would like to thank the Government of Assam for
intervening in time to save the lives of these determined ladies who
has followed the footsteps of Mohan Das Karamchand Gandhi who went on
repeated 'Fasting Protests' during the Indian independence struggle.

We are very hopeful that the Assam Government will honour the
written reassurances and commitments given to the ladies on doing the
needful in tracing the where about of the missing persons pursuing all
avenues and return them to their families as soon as possible.

The ladies fasting from. 21 March 2007 have put their health in
extreme jeopardy. Appropriate care need to be provided for overall
well being of these ladies who have put their bodies through extreme
starvation on a background of a anxiety over their beloved ones for
over the last Two and a Half year and it is expected that the
appropriate authorities have already taken this into consideration and
continue the care needed for them without any prejudice.

Dr. M. Hazarika
Co-ordinator
AssamWatch(UK)
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