[Assam] Fwd: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'

Ram Sarangapani assamrs at gmail.com
Thu May 10 12:17:30 PDT 2007


But 'POCOR' exists only as a figment of overactive imaginations of some
people :)


On 5/10/07, Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
>  That would be like the acronym for Probaxi Oxomiyas Conditionally Opposed
> to Reforms ( POCOR), wouldn't it?
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> At 11:02 AM -0700 5/10/07, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote:
>
> Pardon my levity here..............
>
>
>
> I was told that MASS stands for Manab Adhikar Sangram Samiti. I'd like to
> propose a change in their name to ULFAr Adhikar Sangram Samiti. The acronym
> would be
>
> ULFAr ASS.
>
> ============================================================
>
> *Chan Mahanta <cmahanta at charter.net>* wrote:
>
> > All most people would want to know if these HR orgs.
>
> >are 'fair & balanced' when they they show their selective outrages.
>
>
> *** I know Ram, I do. ALL they want from them despicable HR Orgs. is
> 'fairness and balance'* like* their government, their press, their TV
> stations, and their very own selves!
>
>
> Who are you kidding Ram ?
>
>
>
> > But, one would think, that they do a huge explanation to Assam and her
> people >in general - don't you think?
>
>
> Yeah? Like the governments past and present whose acts of commission and
> omission created ULFA perhaps?
>
>
> But I haven't ever seen any righteous outrage on that account from our
> vocal intelligentsia. Any idea why Ram?
>
>
>
> >Is India at war with another country at the moment? And does it have
> POWs? That would be news.
>
> >From the likes of it, it seems India treats ulfa, at best, as insurgents,
> and >at worst, as terrorists. And I do not think the Geneva Convention
> considers >such types as POWs.
>
>
>
> *** Dick Cheney will be proud of you.
>
>
> But let us not forget for one moment, that the USA too was born with the
> help of the same kind of 'non-warfare' that you or Dick Cheney or GWB would
> not give any Geneva Convention recognition for.
>
>
> And let us not insult anyone's intelligence here by EQUATING  AlQaeda with
> Chechnyans' struggle for independence or ULFAs'.
>
>
>
> >No, it certainly is not.  But, to be fair, shouldn't the ULFA also
> account for >the missing and account for the killing they perpetrated on
> innocent common >folks?
>
>
> *** YES. They should. But let us not try to equate the insurgents hiding
> in jungles or taking shelter in contiguous countries, without the
> institutions or resources of the Indian state, either to keep tab or hold
> control over their prisoners or victims and WITHHOLDING that information
> from their families. There is a difference here you know?
>
>
> >Oh! I watch old Steven every chance I get - and I agree with you.
>
>
> *** I sure am glad to hear that Ram. But still you invoke the Dick
> Cheneyesque argument about why ULFA families should not be given info. on
> the whereabouts of   those that India either killed or are holding
> prisoners.
>
>
> What gives?
>
>
> c-da
>
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> At 11:01 AM -0600 5/10/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da.
>
>
>
> *** That is not how I read the posts in 'asom' or your support therefor.
> Did I read them incorrectly? The righteously outraged in 'asom' and assamnet
> demanding explanations from 'assamwatch' for their purported siding only
> with ULFA and ULFA sympathizers and not for  purported ULFA  victims was the
> issue that started this string of posts, didn't it?
>
>
>
> You may have misinterpreted what they meant. All most people would want to
> know if these HR orgs.
>
> are 'fair & balanced' when they they show their selective outrages.
>
>
>
> What I meant was that they don't owe me or other individuals an
> 'explanation' of any sort. But, one would think, that they do a huge
> explanation to Assam and her people in general - don't you think? Or, do you
> think, they don't even owe that?
>
>
>
> >Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with
> the >GOI.
>
>
>
>
> >>*** That is a revelation . I wonder why.
>
>
>
> I brought up GOI - because that is where these HR groups and sympathizers
> will ultimately have to go to have their complaints redressed. There is no
> other option, or is there?
>
>
>
> >If I might, I would also add the righteous and the unbiased of 'assamnet'
> and 'asom' to the list too.
>
>
>
>
> Really! I have yet to come across Assamnet shutting anyone out.
>
>
>
> >Geneva Convention and treat prisoners of war with certain dignity and
> humanity
>
>
>
> Is India at war with another country at the moment? And does it have POWs?
> That would be news.
>
> From the likes of it, it seems India treats ulfa, at best, as insurgents,
> and at worst, as terrorists. And I do not think the Geneva Convention
> considers such types as POWs.
>
>
>
> I know, many would like their cause to be shown as 'the cause' and
> showcase that as the 'Great War' with all the trappings of
>
> POWs, Geneva Conventions etc. In all probability, to no doubt, elevate the
> stature of local low-level conflicts to something more "global' - that the
> whole world is paying attention.
>
>
>
> The fact is the Chechens want that, the Ulfa wants it, and so does the Al
> Queda.  All of them in wanted lists in the US. Well, they got the Global
> Attention!
>
> Issues like "POW status" are usually reserved for countries at war and
> that too observe certain rules of engaement.
>
> They don't go on extortion or killing rounds, nor make hostages of women
> and children (Chechnya) and kill them (Chehnya and Dhemaji).
>
>
>
> *>Still is it unreasonable to expect an account of what India did to the
> ULFA husbands*
>
> *>of these women? That is the issue here.*
>
>
>
> No, it certainly is not.  But, to be fair, shouldn't the ULFA also account
> for the missing and account for the killing they perpetrated on innocent
> common folks?
>
> Now, you don't want to give one party a pass just because some people
> think "Indians also claim a superior civilizational heritage"?
>
> Or does THAT not matter at all?
>
>
>
> >If you get a chance, watch  the Colbert Report in Comedy Central
>
>
>
> Oh! I watch old Steven every chance I get - and I agree with you.
>
>
>
> >BTW there are more apologies and 'mistakes were made' mea-culpas in
> today's paper too
>
>
>
> I know, there are way too many mea-culpas and that too only from one side.
> The GOI should let the ulfa get out some mea-culpas too. And we all wait
> with bated breadth. :)
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
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> On 5/10/07,* Chan Mahanta* <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
>
>
>
> Here is a delayed response to your litany of complaints:
>
>
>
>
> >They can be as SELECTIVE as they wish - and they don't have to give me or
> >anyone else any reason.
>
>
>
>
> *** That is not how I read the posts in 'asom' or your support therefor.
> Did I read them incorrectly? The righteously outraged in 'asom' and assamnet
> demanding explanations from 'assamwatch' for their purported siding only
> with ULFA and ULFA sympathizers and not for  purported ULFA  victims was the
> issue that started this string of posts, didn't it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with
> the >GOI.
>
>
>
>
> *** That is a revelation . I wonder why.
>
> If I might, I would also add the righteous and the unbiased of 'assamnet'
> and 'asom' to the list too. Wouldn't you :-)?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >There is another angle to all this is, I don't know what "DUTIES" the GOI
> owes >specially to those who have denounced their Indian citizenship, and
> those who >have expressed in no uncertain terms that they will harm India,
> its assets and >anything in between, whenever they can.
>
>
>
>
> *** You are right on that count. But GoI, its apologists and Indians also
> claim a superior civilizational heritage, which, one might venture to guess,
> would transcend geographical boundaries or nationality labels. Like those
> 'civilized' nations that subscribe to the Geneva Convention and treat
> prisoners of war with certain dignity and humanity, even though they are
> enemies. After all 'enemies' too put their lives in the line of fire with a
> CAUSE that THEY hold dear. I know
>
> the GOOD FOLKS are the ones that are RIGHT in these conflicts; like the
> USA or India while those who do not agree are WRONG.
>
>
>
>
> *Still is it unreasonable to expect an account of what India did to the
> ULFA husbands of these women? That is the issue here.*
>
>
>
>
> And should the righteous of 'asom' or 'assamnet' oppose giving out such
> information or support GoI's withholding it, because 'assamwatch' or other
> such despicable and biased HR orgs did not take up the cause of the victims
> of ULFA actions ?
>
>
>
>
>
> I will be very interested in hearing that as I am sure others who sport
> that mantle of holiness like you all do. It will make very interesting
> reading :-).
>
>
>
>
> If you get a chance, watch  the Colbert Report in Comedy Central. He
> explores and exposes these truths in vivid color :-).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Perhaps, the only duty the GOI may have for such people is HR. In today's
> papers, I read the army has apologized for mistreating villages (while
> pursuing ulfa - I think in Arunachal).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** I am so relieved to hear that :-). BTW there are more apologies and
> 'mistakes were made' mea-culpas in today's paper too, that would make your
> Indianness proud.  And if I were a betting man, there will continue to be
> many more of those. What is a better way to wash one's dirty hands off after
> rubbing some unfortunate's life out than to say 'OOOPS! That was a mistake.
> We are so sorry!'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> c-da
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> At 10:57 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da
>
>
>
>
> >*** I can't give you that answer, since I don't speak for assamwatch.
> Perhaps you will ask them.
>
>
>
>
> perhaps.
>
>
>
>
> >*** What do you think ? Were they? And if they were / are, WHO ought to
> be looking out for their >welfare? Should it be 'legitimate' authorities or
> 'biased' HR orgs.?
>
>
>
>
> We are assuming that the GOI is NOT doing its job of cleaning up its own
> mess, the mess left by ulfa, and the mess left by anyone one else.
>
>
>
>
> Then come these various HR orgs. Is it "their" duty to bring up these
> matters of selective outrage.
>
> No, certainly not. They can be as SELECTIVE as they wish - and they don't
> have to give me or anyone else any reason. including the GOI.
>
> Well, this type of selective  outrage doesn't seem to fly vey well with
> the GOI. After all, the "appeals" in all righteousness are in the end made
> to the GOI.
>
>
>
>
> There is another angle to all this is, I don't know what "DUTIES" the GOI
> owes specially to those who have denounced their Indian citizenship, and
> those who have expressed in no uncertain terms that they will harm India,
> its assets and anything in between, whenever they can.
>
>
>
>
> That perhaps is ONE single reason why the GOI is so hesitant to release
> those ulfa cadres it has caught. GOI releases, they skip town, to kill
> another day. Now, we all know how 'dumb' the GOI is, but lests not take that
> too far.
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps, the only duty the GOI may have for such people is HR. In today's
> papers, I read the army has apologized for mistreating villages (while
> pursuing ulfa - I think in Arunachal).
>
>
>
>
> My point is for someone to ask for 'fairplay' in HR matters, there must be
> some kind of HISTORICAL record of HR orgs that they are touting for, that
> tells the world - LOOK, we play fair, and we are what we say we are - an HR
> org.
>
>
>
>
> >*** The conundrum you manufacture here is a false one Ram. It is NOT a
> conundrum at all.  It is merely >an attempt to hide behind circular logic,
> when confronted by the superficiality of the outrage expressed >in the
> original propositions.
>
>
>
>
> Possibly - but wasn't it you who had brought up the plight of the ulfa
> wives on hunger strike and appealing to netters. As I recall, there were not
> any takers on this net (including me). Now, why was that?
>
> Because, C'da, the very next week, I think, you gave a wide-berth to the
> plight of the families who are demanding answers from the ULFA (organized by
> the Assam Public Works or something).
>
>
>
>
> My guess is netters were not hold their breath here.
>
>
>
>
> So, actually, this is the problem - there are these common folks (the ulfa
> wives, and those who kin were killed by the ulfa). Their plights are almost
> similar.
>
> And yet, battle lines are drawn - one group supported by the PCG, the
> PCPIA and others, while the other unfortunate group is supported by the APW.
>
> Even in your appeal, one of the demands along these lines "release of the
> 5 detained by the GOI and talks with the ULFA". Now, who put that in? While
> they may have been great points to bring up elsewhere, the poor ulfa wives
> got a raw deal there - their cause, IMHO, was dragged into unnecessary
> political gamesmanship, in which those ladies had no immediate stake.
>
>
>
>
>
> I really wonder, and really do, if there is such an organization in Assam
> or elsewhere who is just interested in uplifting in some small way the lives
> of so many affected by this continuous cycle of violence in Assam - without
> regard to who is winning and who is losing in the political chessgame
> between the ulfa and the GOI and keeping all pretenses aside?
>
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> On 5/8/07,* Chan Mahanta* <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Ram:
>
>
>
>
> >That is very interesting and I wonder why.
>
>
>
>
> *** I can't give you that answer, since I don't speak for assamwatch.
> Perhaps you will ask them.
>
>
>
>
> >Just wondering if any Assamese families were ever affected because the
> ulfa allegedly killed their >husbands, children etc.
>
>
>
>
> *** What do you think ? Were they? And if they were / are, WHO ought to be
> looking out for their welfare? Should it be 'legitimate' authorities or
> 'biased' HR orgs.?
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh, I see! But ULFA should NOT have done anything that might have harmed
> some to begin with, right?
>
> I agree. Ram.  Unfortunately such conflicts do not arise out of nothing?
> What has CHANGED about the CAUSES that gave rise to ULFA? Have you asked
> that question?  Are you able to face the answer to such questions?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >But that couldn't be true, nobody really has any good proof that it was
> the ulfa who could have done >such things. A good guess would be those
> people killed themselves for some unknown reason.
>
>
>
>
> >Hence, in such a situation, it is impossible for any "rights group" or
> for that matter, futile, for anybody, >with any ounce of righteousness to
> stand up for them.
>
>
>
>
> >This, of course, does NOT hold true of the supporters and advocates of
> ulfa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** The conundrum you manufacture here is a false one Ram. It is NOT a
> conundrum at all.  It is merely an attempt to hide behind circular logic,
> when confronted by the superficiality of the outrage expressed in the
> original propositions.
>
>
>
>
> But that does not eliminate the problem: The insurgency and its toll on
> EVERYBODY. What is therefore the answer? I would submit it is a POLITICAL
> settlement that would end the conflict .
>
>
>
>
> If we contribute something to bring that about we would be a part of the
> solution. And that would not come from waving those banners of
> self-righteousness dyed with conveniently affected outrage and demonizing HR
> orgs. Raising our voices to achieve a just and honorable political solution
> the conflict will.
>
>
>
>
> c-da
>
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> At 8:50 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> C'da,
>
>
>
>
> Just realized just after I sent the mail. Sorry about that.
>
>
>
>
> Your post on the subject, of course, as usual raises valid points.
>
>
>
>
> "It might be a matter interested to you to know that our widely circulated
> and Assam media reported Press Release to help the victims (within our
> limits) of the Dhemaji Explosion did not produce any results" - Assam Watch
>
>
>
>
> That is very interesting and I wonder why.
>
>
>
>
> Just wondering if any Assamese families were ever affected because the
> ulfa allegedly killed their husbands, children etc. But that couldn't be
> true, nobody really has any good proof that it was the ulfa who could have
> done such things. A good guess would be those people killed themselves for
> some unknown reason.
>
>
>
>
> Hence, in such a situation, it is impossible for any "rights group" or for
> that matter, futile, for anybody, with any ounce of righteousness to stand
> up for them.
>
>
>
>
> >the propensity of some of our peers whose piety and righteous outrages
> are >usually set aside ONLY for those with whom they have empathy for, be it
> >for social, be it for political, be it for linguistic, be it for religious
> or be it even >for moral grounds.
>
>
>
>
> This, of course, does NOT hold true of the supporters and advocates of
> ulfa.
>
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/8/07,* Chan Mahanta* <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Ram,
>
>
>
>
> I am fine with assamnet which goes thru assam.org. I am not allowed to
> post in ASOM however, even though I get to see 'asom' list posts, time to
> time. For some reason they come to my mailbox, even though I never
> subscribed to it.
>
>
>
>
>
> c-da
>
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> At 8:18 AM -0600 5/8/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
>
> >I do not have privileges to post in the ASOM list, even though, by some
> quirk >of the internet's  reach, I do get to see its posts, sometimes. So I
> request >Wahid Kokaideu to forward  this response, if he would, to that list
> as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> This post seems to come thru fine, C'da. I even checked assam.org - seems
> fine.
>
> Of course. it could be that you are high up in the Ozarks, and nothing can
> reach you :):)
>
>
>
>
> --Ram
>
>
> On 5/8/07,* Chan Mahanta* <cmahanta at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Wahid Kokaideu raises a valid question, as do the others of the ASOM
> list.  It demonstrates the generosity and registers the fair-minded outlooks
> of all those who look out for the welfare of ALL, regardless of the labels
> or the stigmata SOME might be associated with, whether they are self
> acquired or assigned by others or gained from accidents of history.
>
>
>
>
>
> Or so it might seem.
>
>
>
>
> Why I add the above qualifier is for a very simple reason: Over the
> decades I have witnessed, just like all others too who  are either willing
> or able, the propensity of some of our peers whose piety and righteous
> outrages are usually set aside ONLY for those with whom they have empathy
> for, be it for social, be it for political, be it for linguistic, be it for
> religious or be it even for moral grounds.
>
>
>
>
> But we also know it is not unique to our peers. It happens to be an
> universal response.
>
>
>
>
> So why do I even bother to raise the issue? What makes it special?
>
>
>
>
> For two reasons.
>
>
>
>
>         A: The mantle of superior morality worn by our learned peers who
> are outraged by
>
>         the despicable human-rights organizations who take up causes ONLY
> of people with the
>
>         stigma I described above and not ALL, regardless of their sins,
> real or perceived, as they
>
>         - the fair minded citizenry - would  undoubtedly do.
>
>
>
>
>         B:  The intellectual acumen of the outraged who speculated in the
> ASOM mailing list as
>
>         to WHY these fasting wives had to go marry them ULFA cadres about
> whose fate the
>
>
>         Indian government remains  silent, in spite of ONE its own High
> Court's orders to reveal
>
>         it to these wives.
>
>
>
>
> If we take a moment to take a deeper look at the above two points it will
> be eminently clear that:
>
>
>
>
> In A above, the mantle of superior morality derived from an universal
> goodwill for the welfare of ALL is, at best, a mythical one. It is a
> conveniently donned cloak. For they WERE / ARE NOWHERE to be found
>
> when THOSE WHOSE acts of commission and omission gave rise to the
> insurgency in Assam and ULFA amongst one of the sub-continent's most docile
> and passive ethnic community, the Oxomiyas.
>
>
>
>
> In B above we see an abject  ignorance of one of civilized societies' most
> fundamental tenets: They do not hold the spouses or the children of
> individuals charged or adjudged  guilty of a crime similarly guilty, just
> like they do not hold an entire race or religion or country guilty of the
> transgressions  or crimes of a few; like they do for example in India.
> Remember the Sikh pogrom after Indira Gandhi's killing? Remember the  Godhra
> aftermath?
>
>
>
>
> Finally, those  whose outrages are NOT convenient or politically expedient
> , ought to ask FIRST:  Why do HR activists needed at all? Is it NOT because
> of a FAILURE of those who are entrusted with protecting the rights of the
> ALL of the citizenry and for upholding the rule of law to begin with? If the
>
> 'legitimate' govts. did their job, WOULD these despicable, BIASED and
> SELF-SERVING HUMAN RIGHTS  organization be even needed?
>
>
>
>
> I do not have privileges to post in the ASOM list, even though, by some
> quirk of the internet's  reach, I do get to see its posts, sometimes. So I
> request Wahid Kokaideu to forward  this response, if he would, to that list
> as well.
>
>
>
>
> cm
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> At 3:16 AM -0400 5/8/07, assamwatch at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: assamwatch at aol.com
>
> To: assamonline at yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 4 May 2007 6.21PM
> Subject: Re: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'
>
> Dear Mr Wahid Saleh,
>
>
>
>
> We are very grateful to receive a copy of your posting in response to our
> Press Release AW/001/2007 Dated 29.04.2007.
>
>
>
>
>
> AssamWatch(UK) would encourage you to submit us cases of Human Rights
> violations in the internationally recognised format occurring in Assam with
>  permission to AssamWatch(UK) from the victim/victims to enable us to work
> on those cases.
>
>
>
>
> It might be a matter interested to you to know that our widely circulated
> and Assam media reported Press Release to help the victims (within our
> limits) of the Dhemaji Explosion did not produce any results.
>
>
>
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
>
> Press section.
>
>
>
>
> AssamWatch(UK)
>
>
>
>
> 4 May 2007
>
>
>
>
> AssamWatch is a voluntary non-profit making Human Rights organisation
> based in the United kingdom.
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>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: wahid.saleh at gmail.com
> To: assamonline at yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 3 May 2007 10.30AM
> Subject: [asom] Re: Press Release on 'Fast unto Death'
>
> I understand that AssamWatch (UK) is a Human rights organization.
> >From the press release by Dr Hazarika, as he mentioned about the six
> wives of the ULFA cadres, it seems he is only concerned about the
> wellbeing of ULFA and ULFA relatives.
>
> My question to Dr Hazarika:
>
> What about the families that had to part with their near
> and dear ones due to the ULFA's brutality?
>
> Many of those kidnapped by the ULFA remain traceless, (for
> your information Dr Hazarika please see the post:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/assamonline/message/3100 )
>
> Are these families not 'human' enough so that their 'rights' could
> be taken up by Human rights organization like AssamWatch (UK)?
>
> Regards,
> Wahid Saleh
>
> --- assamwatch at ... wrote:
>
> PRESS RELESE
>
> AW/001/2007
>
> Dated 29 April 2007
>
> AssamWatch(UK) has noted with some relief that upon receiving firm
> written commitment from the Chief Minister of Assam, the six wives of
>
> the missing cadres of the United Liberation Front of Asom in Bhutan in
> December 2003 has ended their 'FAST UNTO DEATH' action on 26 April
> 2007. Assam Watch(UK) would like to thank the Government of Assam for
> intervening in time to save the lives of these determined ladies who
> has followed the footsteps of Mohan Das Karamchand Gandhi who went on
> repeated 'Fasting Protests' during the Indian independence struggle.
>
> We are very hopeful that the Assam Government will honour the
> written reassurances and commitments given to the ladies on doing the
> needful in tracing the where about of the missing persons pursuing all
> avenues and return them to their families as soon as possible.
>
> The ladies fasting from. 21 March 2007 have put their health in
> extreme jeopardy. Appropriate care need to be provided for overall
> well being of these ladies who have put their bodies through extreme
> starvation on a background of a anxiety over their beloved ones for
> over the last Two and a Half year and it is expected that the
> appropriate authorities have already taken this into consideration and
> continue the care needed for them without any prejudice.
>
> Dr. M. Hazarika
> Co-ordinator
> AssamWatch(UK)
>
> __._,_.___
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